Episode Transcript
Adam O'Leary (00:00.704)
If you're a business owner struggling to build a professional brand that is not just visible, but also genuinely influential, then our guest Barney O'Kelly is about to give you a simple win you can implement today. Barney O'Kelly is passionate about the power of personal brand and relationship building. He's worked with senior people in many businesses to help them understand who they are, what they do and why it matters and to give them the confidence to be a powerful marketer of themselves.
Barney, so excited to have you here.
Barney (00:32.891)
Thanks Adam, that's the warmest welcome I've ever had so I appreciate it.
Adam O'Leary (00:36.366)
I love that. Well, perfect. So Barney, I know that you talk about the power of influence. Why is that power of influence more important than just sharing posts on LinkedIn, for example?
Barney (00:51.089)
So I was thinking about this as I walked the dog this morning and I think, so amplification is really just making a lot of noise, right? And if you come at it from like a larger business perspective, which I know a lot of your listeners' businesses are in the earlier stages of their existence, it has some merit. It's a form of free advertising. You're mobilizing the workforce. We're all on the same team, yada, yada, yada. Influence is by definition more persuasive. But I thought about this and I thought, is that even the right term?
because these all sound very cynical and they all sound mechanistic and I think what we're looking for is connection or relationships and I think the reason why influence might work a little bit better is because it's based around the idea of an idea or something. With amplification there's not the richness of idea in there but I think it's also a double-edged sword because I think people struggle with it because it sounds like you're trying to manipulate or persuade people which gets it dangerously close to selling which I know is your passion.
But as you know, lots of people struggle with the notion of selling a lot of the time. There's a certain vulgarity to it that people don't always love. So I think it's about influencing in a way that's putting thoughts out into the world that people can connect with or that resonate with people that start a conversation. And the conversation is really where the relationship starts to develop. And you realise that you believe the same things or you have similar views about things.
or that you want to achieve the same things. And I think that's where it becomes really powerful because it's about the conversation and it's about building the relationship, not just about making noise and saying, look at me.
Adam O'Leary (02:27.903)
Yeah, so let's talk about that conversation because I think that's really important. So if I'm on LinkedIn right now and I'm trying to identify which leads to speak to or try to get them into my sales cycle, how do you go ahead and kind of start that conversations or know exactly who to even start those conversations with?
Barney (02:49.189)
Yeah, I think that's a tricky one, right? So I think this is where thinking about what you're actually trying to achieve is a pretty good place to start. Like who needs to know you for you to achieve what you want to achieve or who needs to know you so you can help them achieve what they want to achieve. So anybody who's trying to sell something, we can be comfortable with that term, has a group of people who their product or service will be interested to.
Those people usually have some form of common job title or are in certain types of organizations. So that's a great place to start. LinkedIn, if that's where we're going to focus the conversation, is a database as well as a social network, as well as a great many other things, depending on your point of view. So you can start to explore the types of people that you want to connect with and you can look at them. there's a lot of information on a LinkedIn profile that will tell you whether this person is a regular user of LinkedIn.
whether they have a large network themselves. If you connect with people that you are interested in who have large networks, build a relationship with them, maybe their network can become, or parts of their network can become parts of your network. So the research bit of it is quite important, but it's actually quite easy, because you can do it all from the comfort of your home, or the comfort of your phone if you're so inclined. The hard bit is taking those first steps, and that's something that actually...
And I know you know this, a lot of people are not psychologically predisposed to making the first step. You know, I've never met this person before, I'd like to meet them, where do I start? You start by asking them. You ask them to connect with you on LinkedIn. Or you make it clear why you want to connect with them on LinkedIn. And then when they've connected with you, you follow up. Not straight away, right? We know that that's kind of viewed quite dimly on LinkedIn.
But follow up with statements of value and meaning, not just I want to sell you something and so on. And you've kind of got to do it a little bit at scale. So if you ask one person and you try and do it one person at a time, your chances of success are probably a lot narrower than if you try with five people or 10 people. And let's say two of those say, yeah, I'd love to chat. It's a 20 % conversion rate, it's terrible.
Barney (04:58.835)
And you go from there. So I think the mechanics of finding the people is actually quite easy if you have a clear idea about what you're trying to achieve or what you're trying to sell. I think actually taking those first steps is where people struggle. And very, very accomplished people struggle.
Adam O'Leary (05:10.283)
Yeah, and let's, for sure. No, I totally agree with that 100%. And I think the reason that people struggle is because they don't know what to send. I mean, it's very hard. I mean, people will, they'll have a whole database. They can go on LinkedIn. They can go to sales navigator, type it in. They can go to Facebook. They can get all this type of stuff, but they don't know necessarily what to send to somebody. And so let's talk about that value that you were just discussing a few moments ago. What are some,
Barney (05:36.048)
and
Adam O'Leary (05:38.919)
actual true pieces of value that you can use to be able to start that initial conversation.
Barney (05:46.247)
This is something I think about an awful lot and I think working in the sector I work in professional services. think we overthink full stop, but we overthink on this bit to a full, you know, I need to send them some content. I don't believe that you do. You know, a lot of the approaches I recommend are telling that person that you're interested in them. You know, a classic one is, oh, I've been following you for a while on here. I find some of the things you say really fascinating and...
I find myself agreeing with them. I'd love to learn more. Don't underestimate that flattery is very persuasive, particularly if it's genuine. Being told, I really liked what you did. I'd like to talk to you. I mean, that's why we're talking today. You said something nice to me that appealed to my vanity and here I am. And it's the same thing. And it shows a level of generousness, which is I'm interested in you rather than I want you to be interested in me.
And I think it's easier psychologically to approach it from that perspective rather than here's our latest report. Let me shove it down your throat and see if you want to have a conversation. Right. Like this is why I talk about relationships and making friends and, that kind of language rather than connections and networks, which is, which is very sterile. You know, you're trying to build a relationship, proper relationship, you know, and,
No one started the greatest relationships in their lives, their deepest friendships or their, you know, the loves of their lives with content, right? They started by showing genuine interest in that human being, which in one hopes is reciprocated. And then you find those areas of commonality, shared beliefs, shared values, shared objectives. It's really no different. We are human beings. Then you can share content because you know them well enough to go, look, I read this.
I'm always recommending films and books and all sorts of stuff to people but that's because I know them well enough to think that they'll like them. Does that make sense?
Adam O'Leary (07:49.581)
And absolutely it does 100 % and I already know what some people are thinking right now. So I'm gonna go ahead and I want you to break this down. So the way that most business owners think is that they have a lead, a marketing qualified lead, a sales qualified lead, and then obviously hopefully a customer. But the problem when it comes to making these initial conversations is that some people feel that they don't know if that lead is a marketing qualified or a sales lead yet.
Right? So they're afraid of wasting their time. Can you kind of just kind of go into this and just kind of talk about why these relationships might not be a waste of time or maybe why they are?
Barney (08:33.639)
So I'm trying do this without swearing too much or being too grumpy, but I think the language that you're using is part of the problem. It's very difficult, and you have the same thing with the sales funnel. It's very difficult to categorise a relationship in that way, and it's very cynical to categorise a relationship in that way because you're building it around your own objectives.
This is a marketing qualified lead, now it's a sales qualified lead. And in larger organizations, what marketing considers a qualified lead and what sales consider a qualified lead are two completely different things a lot of the time. So sales think that marketing is just chucking a load of shit over the wall and they've now got to figure out whether it's any good or not. The challenge with the relationship, and I think this is a problem that some of your listeners probably encounter, is sometimes you just don't know.
But you should have a really good idea before you even start the relationship, if it's sales-based relationship, as to whether or not this is the kind of person who typically buys your services and products. And if you go delving into deep marketing literature, you'll realize that there's a lot of value in being available mentally and physically to people who you haven't even thought about, right? So advertising, being present, turning up, this is where posting stuff on LinkedIn and broader marketing disciplines have real value.
But I think you've just got to cultivate the relationship and recognise that actually if you have a clear idea about who buys your services or products, people like that would be a good place to start building those relationships. And then through the conversations that you have, by virtue of having a proper connection with them, you'll figure out where you can be helpful to them and how you can be helpful to them. But the problem is, is we're trying to work people through a process and we're trying to work them through a machine.
Literally in most cases the machine is sales force right you're trying to work them through a CRM platform in the hope that a sales comes out sale comes out the other end it might be a better idea to start with where you're making sales and work backwards from there and Concentrate your activity around more of those kinds of people and then I think you'll start to see the results
Adam O'Leary (10:39.948)
Absolutely, 100%. And I'm thinking of it right now. I guess we're...
there can be this kind of struggle or this concept is that it's very easy to think linear, right? So it's very easier to think in a sales pipeline type of a process, but it's harder to think when you're trying to view the human connections at the top and then the sales pipeline. The easiest way that I always like to think of this is that 95 % of your audience is not in a buying state of mind right now.
only 5 % of people are truly in a buying state, right? So a question for you Barney is for those 95 % of people that you're going out making these connections with building that authenticity with how are you following up with those 95 % of people even though that you know that they're not in a buying state of mind right now?
Barney (11:32.977)
That's a really good question. So personally, I don't. Right, you know, I think there is certain facets of being a human being that are pretty helpful when it comes to relationship building. So I'm in a reasonably fortunate position that I have quite a people come and talk to me. And historically, you know, my job titles have suggested I have budget to spend and people want to come and sell me stuff and...
depending on how they've approached me, has been a big determinant on whether I've even had the conversation. And depending on how that conversation develops, has been a huge determinant on whether I actually buy the product. So it's very relationship based. I think it's really, really hard to manage relationships and manage a network, if I'll allow myself to use that term, in completely, right? I think you have to be focused. I think you have to be focused and manage it in bite-sized chunks.
So the way I would do it is say you've connected with 100 people, right? Focus on five that you know are probably gonna be more receptive and more likely to want to have a conversation with you. And from that five, let's say you convert one. Again, you're still working to, and this is all made up Barney maths, right? But you still converted 20 % of them, right? And make it manageable. I think the problem with it is the idea of being friends with everybody and connecting with everybody is...
from the get-go overwhelming. So knowing where to start. So break it down. You know, they would say the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time, right? So break it down and focus on building those connections and recognise that relationships are rich and multifaceted. If your only focus is selling stuff to people, you are going to be unsuccessful. A colleague of mine said to me once, the problem with selling is people confuse it with selling, right?
Barney (13:26.585)
If you focus on all of the things that create connection, build relationships, enable you to demonstrate value, be useful to people, help them appreciate that maybe you are putting their interests before yours, you will probably be more successful in the long term. The challenge is that timeframe, because everybody wants to be successful in the short term, which reduces things down to cynical processes, putting people through a system or, you know, I just, think human beings are not that manageable.
You need to invest with the weird ethereal nature of human beings, not this person is in this stage, this stage, this stage. And particularly in B2B where I work, it's not one person, it's a collection of people. Most buying decisions are made up of committees of people. And committee is probably a generous term. mean, it's made up of individuals with their own motivations and their own drivers and their own preferences and their own perspectives.
And you need to understand all of those people, because if you're just trying to sell to one of them, you may end up selling to none of them. Right? And if you go in really trying to understand individual and organisational motivations and needs, yeah, the investment in time is huge. But if what you're selling is, is, is, you know, of a reasonable price point, the investment's probably worth it. And actually, if you're trying to do that on a grand scale, you're probably spreading yourself way too thin.
and you may completely be inhibiting your chances of success at all.
Adam O'Leary (14:58.334)
Absolutely. No, I totally see that. And I guess in today's day and age, if we're looking at the content that we're going ahead and posting out, because that is one of the ways that we do keep people engaged is the content that we're posting out. One of the problems that I've seen personally is that AI generated content is pretty much, I feel like 90 % of the posts right now. And I think it's starting to become more and more obvious as more people start to post it we start to understand. So if somebody is wanting to go ahead and start posting out content,
How can they make sure that it is authentic and that it is building trust as opposed to AI slop?
Barney (15:36.655)
Yeah, the AI slop thing is a pain point for me. And you're starting to see some of that reflected in how LinkedIn is dealing with posts at the moment. There's a lot of bemoaning, reach declining and all of this kind of stuff. And I think it's really difficult because we're trying to achieve human connection here. And we always talk about LinkedIn, which feels like a weird place to talk about human connection because it is fundamentally a piece of software, right?
I think asking yourself a few questions, you alluded to them in your very kind introduction, who am I, what do I do, why does it matter? What is my value? What is my value proposition? Think about yourself as a brand, which automatically has a large number of people being sick in their mouths, But that will then give you, from answering those questions, you will understand yourself better and what you're all about better. And then that will give you a narrower framework to look at what you wanna talk about, right?
And if you want to be authentic, be authentic. If you really want to outsource your personality to chat GPT, then I feel sorry for you. Because that's not what AI is all about. It's industrialised mediocrity right now. What AI tools can do is really impressive. What they are doing right now and what a lot of people are using them for is not.
Right, so if you're gonna write authentic content, write authentic content. Write it yourself. Or if you have access to it, somebody who can help you write it, but that person should be a human being. And you should have final say on it. And if you really wanna be authentic and human, it shouldn't be perfect. There's nothing wrong with missing a full stop from time to time. Or even dare I say it, and I work in professional services, a typo. Right?
Humanity is in the flaws and the quirks, not in perfection. The search for perfection is a very weird thing, right? And people embrace the idea. And you can actually be much more generous and just say one thing well and see if people respond to it. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't, right? But it has to come from within you, which sounds very sort of fluffy, but that's where the authenticity comes from.
Barney (17:57.999)
Otherwise you're just basically getting a machine to do your thinking for you and that's a bad direction for humanity to be heading in.
Adam O'Leary (18:05.917)
Absolutely, and I know that you guys get some pretty amazing results for your clients So what sort of results have you typically seen from clients having this more authentic voice and where can people go to learn more about you?
Barney (18:17.703)
Well, I think so when we talk about clients, we talk about the people at work with Alex Partners. One of the things about Alex Partners people is they are they are very human, right? And they are decent people. We take real pains to bring really good people into this organization, both technically very capable, but also, you know, complete human beings. And what we see
It's just a different level of connection and different level of conversation. Right. And those that really get it, really get it. And it's about building relationships and recognising that a great relationship for a business like ours can lead to work consistently over a great many years. If we're just trying to sell to people, we might do one job once. Right. And that's the problem. Like a relationship is a long-term thing built on notions of trust and actually genuine appreciation and fondness for one another.
It's a much more powerful business tool than just working people through a funnel or qualifying them as a lead. I don't ever want to be anybody's qualified lead. I want to be someone's friend. I want to be useful to people. I want to have a relationship with them. It's just such horrible language. I don't want to be processed. I want to build connection with people. We talk about it a lot because it is really difficult to put parameters and frameworks around, which is why we always talk about being seen and making friends.
rather than building networks and all this kind of stuff. there's a certain romance to it that appeals to me, but I think that's what we're all about as humans.
Adam O'Leary (19:56.009)
This is amazing and what is the best website that somebody can come visit you or your LinkedIn or whatever it is that you want somebody to come?
Barney (20:02.215)
You can find me on LinkedIn, Barney O'Kelly. There aren't very many of us in the world, mercifully many people would say. And I'm always happy to chat to people about this. It has become, I've often cynical when people talk about passion in the context of work. I think your passion should be culture and music and family, not your job. But I do believe in this. And I do believe that it is the path to genuine fulfilment and business success. And I think...
our short-term outlook and the advent of technology that allows us to process people has encouraged us to build systems and structures and processes that I'm not necessarily sure are working. They might be giving us comfort, but I'm not sure they're working. But I do really believe in this. And as I get older and more stubborn, I believe in it more resolutely. So I'm always happy to chat to people. That's why I'm here today, Adam.
Adam O'Leary (20:58.077)
Amazing. Well, Barney, thank you so much for your time. This was such a great episode.
Barney (21:02.127)
No, thank you. really appreciate it. It's great to talk.
Adam O'Leary (21:04.734)
Absolutely, well guys, thank you so much for listening and I will see you on the next episode of Simple Wins.
